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Coyote 09-20-2003 06:24 PM

Re: Any way to find out...
We all feel like you when we get a "not useful", most probably feel like "what did I do to deserve such a horrible stigma" attached to my name? At first we do and then you have to learn to live with it, not everybody is going to agree with you and the old phrase "but, where's the love" doesn't apply. LOL Just go on giving it your best shot and not worrying about the NU's you get. If you critique a lot, you are going to get some, I do. It would be a pretty boring place if we all thought alike all the time. Just have fun, learn and share your knowledge- that's what we're here for.

xhoss 09-20-2003 07:29 PM

Re: Any way to find out... (I)
I guess that I just want to say one more thing in reply to Edwin's comment:

"Having said this the "not useful" marker is far from used for highlighting trouble makes but moreover used to discourage members to give ratings such as "Cover of a magazine", "Love this one" or "Great shot"."

I personally want ANY and ALL comments. If someone just wants to write and say - "nice shot" - that can be just as powerful as a useful critique.

And you don't even need to mark it one way or another. If its not helpful OR not useful...just leave it as neutral.

I don't want to feel that I have to leave critiques on every shot...some shots are just so good that you can't say much else than "nice shot".

Critiques are good, but someone taking the time to leave anything at all would be better for this community in the long run IMO.

BobTrips 09-20-2003 07:49 PM

Some feedback on your 'Not Usefull's...
I took a quick look at your comments. To me they tend to be "Great shot!" comments, but using more words.

You seldom make any comments that show a critical eye (which is why I used "comments" and not "critiques" in my first sentence). There's the rare, 'bit of straightening' type suggestion, but in general there's no meat in the stew.

If you were to give me a comment such as you usually do I would feel it 'Not Useful'. I seldom check this box, just ignore low information posts. Sounds like other people do check the box.

I found nothing in your comments that anyone should find offensive so I don't think that's the reason. I don't think it's a case of grown ups acting like kids and burning you for giving them real criticism that they really didn't want to hear.

I would guess that I get a fair amount of "I don't want to hear the truth, or your version of the truth" 'Not Useful's. But since I turned off the point system I don't see (or get bothered) by that data.

xhoss 09-20-2003 08:02 PM

Re: Some feedback on your 'Not Usefull's...
while i certainly respect your opinions and view point bob, i wonder why comments have to be written with a critical eye?

I can't be alone in wanting ALL comments - not just ones that propose changes in the composition, etc.

Sometimes seeing a "great shot" comment is better than an in depth critique.

Yes, I have more of a supportive brand of commenting as opposed to your style.

And you read my comment about the grown up acting like kids in the wrong context....i said that because my not useful numbers went up since i started this thread.

But all I was pointing out was that I wanted to identify people such as yourself who didn't like that kind of comments, and make sure that I don't comment on any of your pictures. That way were both happy - you don't get what you don't want - and I don't take the time.

I appreciate your time in responding.

BobTrips 09-20-2003 09:08 PM

Writing and viewing with a critical eye...
Let's go back to Adam's wishes for the site. He's made it clear that he want the critiques to be critiques, not bouquet tosses.

I'll agree that bouquet tosses feel good. But that's not the point of critiques as I understand them.

When I read critiques I want to learn something from them. I want to learn in which ways the image is good and/or how I might improve it or future shots. Wading through a lot of "Great shot!" and "Me Too!" posts is a waste of time, even more so when someone takes a dozen words to say almost nothing. If someone has already said that the composition or color or whatever is great, there's no reason to repeat that statement.

And there is absolutely no reason why one can't be supportive while being critical. In fact, I think it's very important to be supportive along with your criticism. I make a concerted attempt to make some positive comment(s) about every shot I critique.

The only real conflict that I think we've ever had on this site was over one member who was extremely harsh in her comments and offended lots of people.

I'm a little hesitant about replying to your post. It seems like you're a bit ruffled over all this. I don't think people have gone back and marked your comments 'Not Useful' because you started discussing the issue. I think it's as likely, or more likely, that someone has read some of your comments and given you some feedback on the lack of critical viewing.

I think that this is a very friendly and supportive community. I don't think we have many, if any, twisted folks who engage in retributive behavior.

And, let me repeat a suggestion that I've previously made. I think this site needs a 'Bouquet Button'. Just some place to click when one thinks that it's a 'Great Shot!'. Then people have a way to give praise without cluttering up the critiques. Seems like this way everyone would win.

xhoss 09-20-2003 09:37 PM

Re: Writing and viewing with a critical eye...
Bob, again, I appreciate your posts, however I think that you are not seeing my point.

I think that, as you say, bouquet tosses can be a beneficial aspect of this site. Some people want them, some don't. If I throw them, and see that a particular person, or persons don't want them, I won't throw them! I just wanted to know, im my first post, if there was a way to see that. Obviously by now, I know that there is no way to see this information.

And I do take issue with you dissmissing my comments as not much...I really take my time to look at every shot that I comment on. And if I choose to agree with the photographers choice of composition, POV, DOF, ISO speed, etc, that doesn't make it any less important. Applauding specifics as opposed to proposing changes to them can be just as beneficial. I have gotten comments to this degree applauding things that I had not even seen or thought of.

I guess that we agree to disagree.

adam 09-20-2003 10:22 PM

Re: Any way to find out...
"Is there any way to find out which photographers mark your comment as "not useful"?"

As you've found out, no there isn't a way by design, as I didn't want this to cause a breakdown in community harmony between certain members. By the way, I see less of a need for the 'not useful' rating as empty critiques are no longer allowed.

That being said, although these ratings are anonymous to members, they are not anonymous to me. And since retribution is not permitted on TE, if a member notices a jump in their 'not usefuls', they can let me know and I will look into it.

In your case I decided to research your 'not usefuls' and didn't notice anything particularly out of the ordinary. But then I began looking further into some other members and could not believe what I found. Massive retributions against a couple of members (for whatever reason) off of rather useful critiques (IMO), and massive 'usefuls' for a couple of members for empty critiques such 'I like it', etc.

Due to such behavior, I will be changing the TOS. If I encounter such massive attempts at retribution, that member's ability to rate critiques will disappear entirely.

mdchachi 09-21-2003 02:15 AM

Re: Some feedback on your 'Not Usefull's...
> Apparently not everyone liked my openness and sincerety with
> this thread as my "not useful" numbers shot up considerably...

That's not necessarily the reason. You brought attention to yourself. I also looked through your critiques and felt neutral about just about all of them. The one that said "cover shot nice" or whatever is the kind I would have normally marked as 'not useful' though I didn't in this case.
So I think the few extra marks you got were just a matter of more eyes looking at your critiques, not retribution. I doubt that you offended anyone.

> I can't be alone in wanting ALL comments - not just ones
> that propose changes in the composition, etc.

I also like getting comments -- even "nice shot" ones. It feels good and shows people are appreciating you. However, the Terms of Service clearly state that these kinds of comments are discouraged and that critiques should state why, specifically, you like a shot or how, specifically, you think it can be improved. If I get a simple "nice shot" comment on my photos, I never mark them as Not Useful however if I happen to see such a comment on somebody else's photo, I will sometimes mark it as Not Useful though most of the time I just ignore them.

There was some talk about having a separate way to comment on a shot outside of the critique field but I don't know if that is in the works to be implemented or not.
The best thing is to just ignore the points & statistics completely. Go to your profile and turn 'em off.

ronners 09-21-2003 05:06 AM

What is a useful critique anyway?
In the past members have been known to ask for guidance on writing critiques, which I for one would be loathe to do as it is against the spirit of encouraging free thinking.

However, the debate about critiques continues to rumble on. Let's face it, many people would just rather let their photos do the talking, but like to give a photographer credit for good work. This, in my view, is where 'good shot' comes from. Disparaging members because they don't give voluminous critiques is against the spirit of TE.

My opinion is that a good critique teaches me as much as the artist whose work I am commenting on (I purposely use the two terms interchangeably). A good critique takes time and thought, and hence obliges you to think WHY you do or don't like a particular photo. Subsequently, you apply these new opinions to your own photography, and it benefits as a result.

I can't tell you how to critique a photo, but I can tell you to write the second thing that comes into your head, not the first. The first is that you like/don't like a photo. The second thought is 'Why?'. It's the 'why?' that is valuable, and within everyone's grasp as a photographer.

Mrcurtain 09-22-2003 02:02 AM

Re: Any way to find out...
Along with this is there any way to figure out which of your critiques have been rated as 'not useful'. I rated a bunch of photos recently and received a bunch of 'not usefuls'. I don't care who marked it as such, but am very curious which ratings were less than appreciated.

-Adam #2

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